DH Nationals Embarrassment..., Sore loser Danika Schroeter Options

[darktooth]

It is kinda funny as I read this. Now there are 45 posts.

Guess what, there is only 3-4 of you who support the win. But it sounds like a whole crowd. Over and over again you call people who are for women’s racing “rednecks” and you quote this LAW. Well laws can be over turned and it sounds like this one should be. All it takes is for a few people to stand up and speak out against this tyranny of a few.

Good job for all who support women’s sports. Stand up and let your voice be heard.

[denmother]

Actually.....there are many more than 3 or 4 who support the win. I for one have found no need to respond until now because those who have spoken in support of Michelle have done it quite eloquently.

Also...I think the key issue here is Danika's behaviour, not whether or not we support the win. They are actually 2 issues.

denmother

[johniep]

I apologize.

[D-Queued]

D qued or whatever.Now i realize who you are.

You have absolutely no idea who I am!

We have never met.

Having been present last Sunday, however, I have a guess as to who you are. I have only ever met one of last week's participants prior to that event, and that was only once. Likely that rider does not remember who I am -- or, at best, that I was just some old cycling guy. The last time I attended a DH event prior to Sunday was the Kamikaze at Mammoth. And that was over 14 years ago.

I am not spreading rumors. Read again. I think you will find my comments very balanced, even though I am extremely angry about such an utterly foolish act. I have offered you, in particular, some insight as to why this kind of action is potentially so damaging to the sport and to Danika. I urge you to read very carefully.

You, however, have generated and are perpetuating a bad image for DH as you continue to defend an ill-advised action. I should add that I attended last Sunday's event with my family, and it pains me to have to explain such an example of prejudice in this sport. My kids are already familiar with the doping scandals of the pro peloton as my youngest can recite the names of all of those banned from the Tour. This is another black mark on our sport.

I care because I have supported DH in the past, and continue to support cycling in general with words on this forum, participation in events (call me pack fodder), as well as volunteer and financial commitments. On this forum, I have been a strong supporter of Dan as he offered explanation and insight into various DH and Danika related issues.

As I am directly trying to raise money for this sport whose ultimate recipients almost certainly include DH'rs, the kind of action last Sunday directly thwarts and compromises that effort. My family, for example, has every right to ask why I bother spending the time and putting our money into such efforts when this is the kind of situation we have.

The ripples from your action greatly concern me and I would strongly recommend that we agree to disagree. Judging by the number of people reading this particular thread, enough damage has been done already.

I will ask again, can we move on now?

Dave.

[Jake]

Interesting what it takes to get this gang talking about Mountain Biking, especially DH.
Considering the community here is 99% elitist roadie types who couldn't care less about this part of the sport.
For those of you worried about Canada's image in cycling because of this, don't worry. I doubt that anyone internationaly gives a crap. They have there own scandels to worry about.
Much like our national psyche, you guys are much too sensitive about this and are making a too much of a big deal about this.

Anyway, thanks for all the interest in Mtn. Biking, see you all when the next scandal hits.

[Dan Schroeter]

Sound like you are all sick of the subject, but today is the first day that I’ve had access to my computer, so here’s my take, and possibly at little bit of information on the incident at DH Nationals elite women’s podium involving my daughter Danika donning a jersey with what I think cooler heads would call a political message printed on it. I don’t see how it can be characterized as a “hate” message, nor was it directed at Michelle personally so much as at the issue of transgendered males being allowed to compete against women

And before I begin, please note that I did not witness the incident. Like D-Queued, I watched the race, but did not stay for the podium ceremonies. I have talked to Danika, her boyfriend John, and many others after the incident.

Firstly, I agree with Rob and D-Queued and many other views expressed on this forum and others that a national podium, any sport podium for that matter, is not an appropriate venue for political messages or action. While she had no part in conceiving of this stunt, and did not pen the message, I do agree that she had a responsibility to check out what she was being handed by her boyfriend before she put it on. While it can be argued that she should have also known the rules about clothing on the podium, it is my experience that these rules are rarely followed or enforced. In addition, I note that no technical guide was provided to the entrants, nor was one posted on the event website. In any event, she was taken by surprise (where were the commissaires and race organizers when all this was happening?), was in a bit of a vulnerable space, having just been beaten again for the umpteenth time by her transgendered nemesis, was a bit confused as to what was on the shirt, and I think she made a bad decision in the spur of the moment. John didn’t tell her or show her what was on the jersey but just said to trust him and put it on. Had she accepted and worn the shirt only after she walked off the stage, I don’t think there would be any issue open to sanction. But, confused or not, she didn’t and that she has to live with, stand in account for, and hopefully offer appropriate amends to not only Michelle but the wider cycling community. I have no doubts that she will do that in the fullness of time - I know that she has already spoken to Michelle about the incident – but, pending resolution of the issue, the legal advice she sought after seeing Rob’s editorial, has been to avoid public comment.

Rob’s editorial sounds like it’s calling for her head on a platter over this incident. Given the weight that Rob’s views have in the community, I’m disappointed that he didn’t check out the story a bit further before rushing out an editorial, or even include a fuller description of how she came to be wearing the shirt, given that he observed the incident. Danika was certainly available after the event and talked to other media representatives.

It has never been Danika’s style to be confrontative with Michelle. Danika has known Michelle for many years. Both debuted in female downhill racing as Sport Women at the same Bear Mountain BC Cup race in 2001. Michelle destroyed the field by a very wide margin and went on to become the first woman in BC to move from Sport to Elite in a single racing season. Danika went and hid for the rest of the year and then came back next season when she duplicated the feat, without having to deal with Michelle being in her fields. That was the year (2002) that Michelle was first selected to the National Team and all the initial controversy and legal action flared over the propriety of a transgendered male being allowed to compete in elite women’s competition. Though she knew Michelle by this point, Danika wasn’t a player in that round of public debate and legal action.

Over the several years since, during which Danika and Michelle have been racing together at pro events, sometimes sharing accommodation, Danika has gotten to know Michelle fairly well and they have talked at length many times about Michelle’s personal experiences as a transgendered person. She has gone to listen to Michelle speak on several occasions, went to the preview screening of the 100% Woman documentary about Michelle’s life, and has researched and read voluminously on transsexual and transgender topics, including everything that Michelle, and her advisors/supporters, have ever provided to her. Danika has a lot of respect and admiration for Michelle and for the journey she has taken. She has consistently tried to tone down the rhetoric of some others in the DH community who have resorted to attacking Michelle personally in their comments on the issue. Ultimately, for Danika, it has always been the issue, and not the person, that she has trouble with. And the issue for her – and for me, for that matter – is that large, well-muscled men, who are born and develop unambiguously as males (no chromosomal, reproductive, or hormonal abnormalities), and who transgender after fully developing into mature males, should not compete in elite competition against women. It is simply unfair to the women that they compete against. I believe that Michelle was 26 when she started the transgendering process. She was a big man at the time. You only have to look at the podium shot to understand that, as a woman, she remains big and powerful, regardless of some loss of mass and height due to hormonal changes. Plus, having watched her race many times, it is apparent to me at least, that she still races like a man. It’s not just the way she muscles a course; she has a much more attacking, fearless style that I believe comes directly from her racing experience as a male. It’s not a style that I see in other elite women – and I’ve watched a lot of races over the last 6 years.

Yes, the law is currently clearly on Michelle’s side in this matter. But the law on this issue, as it is on many other touchstone issues in society, is evolving and still becoming fully formed, and I fully support my daughter protesting (just not on the podium) what she and I both regard as yet another case of “men in suits” finding yet more innovative ways to discriminate against girls and women in sport. Unless, like me, you’ve had a houseful of athletic women to contend with, most men don’t appreciate the difficulties we pile on our female athletes, starting from a very young age. As an adolescent, my wife had to pass herself off as a boy in order to play the hockey that she so desperately wanted to play. Even more recently, she has attracted a lot of unfriendly comment because we have regularly played in the mens’ draws of doubles squash tournaments. Even growing up in the more “modern” era, and with completely supportive jocks for parents, our girls have struggled in their sports, and been labelled tomboys, dykes, lessies and such epithets. While it’s getting better, even today many facets of society still work to pressure young females to try to get them to conform to be “pretty girls” and to drop all that athletic nonsense. So when groups (eg CCA, UIC, IOC) of mostly my-generation, mostly older males decided that, “hey, why don’t we just let those transgendered males, who are constantly at our throats about their human rights, compete with women and get them off our backs?”, it didn’t come as any surprise to me. Plus, they certainly don’t have to worry about precedent - pending the X-men jumping from the silver screen to real life, this situation will never, ever confront men in sports (other than those that have to face my wife on a squash court!).

My suggestion? – draw the line at cases of simple gender dysporia, like Michelle’s. Regardless of whether they transgender or not, don’t allow them to compete with women. For other transsexuals, where there is physiological ambiguity that is resolved medically as female prior to maturity, or where the ambiguity doesn’t allow for male development to maturity and they have chosen to present themselves to the world as female, by all means let them compete with females. I’d also like to see the Gay Games (which includes gay, lesbian, bisexual, and transgendered athletes) be provided more status and recognition, possibly through being drawn into the Olympic movement (though I also worry that this might kill what is a good thing!)

A word to you, Michelle, if you come to read this. I’m sorry for what you went through on the podium last Sunday. I understand from Danika that you were mostly frightened from John rushing onto the stage. When he realizes that this was the case, I hope and trust that he will provide an appropriate apology for what was a thoughtless act. I think that the catcalls you got were also inappropriate, but reportedly these were from only a few hot-headed individuals. The cool reception you apparently got from much of the rest of the crowd is mostly about frustration from the hundreds of supporters of the other women who have collectively worked so hard this year to put Canadian DH back on the world stage where it belongs. For you to show up, after not having raced for over a year, to take the Nationals, upset a lot of people’s calculations.

If I can be so bold, my advice to you going forward is, regardless of rights, to quit the crusading transsexual thing. Can’t be any fun for you and sure doesn’t feel like fun for the rest of the community. The DH community is ready and capable (probably moreso than would be any of the “traditional” cycling communities) to embrace you. Freeride, do toonie races, coach (just think what some of our women could do if you could impart some of your attacking style to them) - but stay out of serious racing. Sure, you are reinforcing your (already established) rights, but you are also trampling on a lot of other people when you do so. And forget the hockey thing – its one thing to bump a DH woman from the National Team; to do so in our national sport would really put the cat among the pigeons. If you go any further down that particular road, you’re a glutton for punishment. Plus, you’ll open yourself up for the criticism that it’s the controversy that you crave more than the sport itself.

As I see it, your lack of a World Cup result this year means that you don’t meet the CCA’s new criteria for selection to the National Team going the Worlds, though we all know that you were capable of meeting the criteria, had you raced. I suspect the CCA will offer you one of the three female spots on the DH team, maybe even more so after the podium incident. However, I encourage you to turn it down in favour of someone else. Given the CCA’s residual upset over the embarrassment that Danika caused them over charging DH National Team members for their 2004 World’s jersey, I suspect that my daughter might have some free time coming up on her calendar if you want to go free-riding instead.

There’s lots of other stuff in Rob’s editorial and in this thread that I’d like to address, but this is way too long already, so I’ll save it for another day and possibly a new thread or two.

I’ll be away from internet access for the next 10 days or so; so you can flame away without fear of any response from me until then.

[Editor]

Dan, I appreciate your very articulate and reasoned response. First, to address the issue of why I did not speak to Danika: I spoke with Michelle and Adrienne before the podiums began, but Danika was not available (ie, had not arrived) by the time the first awards were being made and I had to go out in front to take photos. After the women's podium I had to stay for the men's podium, then the photo of all the national champions. Then i had to interview Andrew Mitchell (men's champion) before he left. By that point (probably 25 minutes after the women's podium) I could not find Danika.

Certainly I would have liked to have spoken with her, but it would not have changed my view that the podium at Nationals is an wholly inappropriate venue for this type of protest, and that this requires some sort of sanction. I recognize that it may have been heat of the moment, but it does not change what transpired - either the embarassment to Michelle Dumaresq, the disrespect to the podium or the effect on spectators.

I am glad to hear that Danika has spoken with Michelle, hopefully this will soothe feelings between them. However, whatever sanctions are applied will not be the result of my editorial, but discussion among the members of the High Performance Committee, who I am told will be deliberating and deciding the matter tomorrow (Friday).

[D-Queued]

Dan, thanks for the well thought out response. Tough one.

Sorry I missed you at the race, I was actually hoping to finally get together. And, as you likely know, I was there to support the event and the racers. Some of our greatest recent success has come out of this group and they do deserve support.

Dave.

[not-a-pretty-gir...]

To begin I would like to say that I am sorry Michelle had to go through any of this. After 5 years of fighting for her rights to compete in the sport she loves as the woman she is, am I sure she must have thought this type of hatred was far behind her. Please know Michelle that not all of us doubt your right to the National Championship Jersey you earned this past weekend.

I would also like to make clear that I am a female who is heavily involved in DH. I think it is safe to say that my opinions on this matter reflect much of the opinions througout the ladies of the sport.

In response to defenses on Danika's part, let's be honest...Danika is a big girl who has stood on many podiums throughout her racing career. Although I would like to think that she in fact had no idea what was on that shirt when she put it on, I am sure she had plenty of opportunity to look down and likewise many chances to cover the appalling words written blatantly across her chest. Even a small attempt to cover herself (or any attempt to stop smiling so proudly) would have helped in her after-the-fact pleas that she did not agree with the written statements.

Furthermore, the fact that she is friend's with Michelle only makes the matter that much more devestating. I can only imagine how I would feel having a personal friend slander my lifestyle and achievements in front of the entire nation. Any attempt to say that the shirt was making a statement against the issue as a whole and had nothing to do with the woman standing atop the podium is an outright lie. If Michelle had not beat Danika that day I am sure the shirt would never have been created in the first place. I can't imagine Danika wearing such a hatful shirt if basking in the glory of her own National Championship win. The amazing part is that Michelle seems to be the type of person that will forgive Danika for this behaviour!!

In response to this being only a small issue, one that will never reach the rest of the mountain biking community, I can assure you it already has. Michelle has competed in World Cup Races in the past, making both friends and enemies and I am fairly certain everyone has heard of and is appalled by this attack already.

As far as reports that Michelle has an unfair advantage due to her size?? Stand her beside Fionn Griffiths or Sabrina Jonnier. I think you will find little difference in her build/height/weight or even muscle tone. To take this matter one step further... the ladies competing at the World Cup level seem to have proven Michelle has little advantage over them. Throughout her career I can't recall a single time that Michelle stood on a World Cup podium. Cracking the top 10 against these international pros was a good race for Michelle. If Michelle has such an advantage is it not fair to say that she would easily podium, if not WIN these World Cup Races?

What Danika did was insult Michelle, herself and the entire mountain biking community. I can only hope that the CCA takes heavy action against her. I certainly hope that Danika will no longer have the honor of representing Canada- a country of open-minded, friendly people- on the international scene.

[johniep]

I apologize.

[sedras]

That's a very interesting posting. Important perspective. Thanks for that.

as a cyclist and a community worker i feel compelled to add to this discussion.

underlying this situation is the issue of transphobia:

transphobia is a fear and hatred of those who do not fit into our society's catagories of what it mean to be male and female. transphobia includes prejudice, discrimination, harassment and acts of violence.

there is internalized transphobia - which is often what happens to those who grow up to believe the prejudices of those around them. there is also institutional transphobia, for example being denied housing or employment because a person who is transexual or transgendered.

transgendered is an umbrella term for anyone who does not totally identify with the gender they were assigned at birth. the leap you have to make when thinking about someone who is transexual is that they have made changes to their body so that they can be seen by the world as they truely feel, not that they have "become" the other gender. that's why we refer to someone who has transitioned and identifies as female, as female.

remember, gender is just the roles and expectations of a society and sex refers to physical attributes; nature, thank goodness, is full of diversity but we have 2,000 years or so of socialization bogging us humans down. so a baby boy might still be dressed in blue, but his penis won't fall off if he plays with a doll.

transphobia is not only experienced by people who are transexual or transgendered, but by people who are thought to be transexual or transgendered because they do not necessarily fit in with assigned gender roles. so like a woman who is called names for, say, being competitive or wearing baggy clothes...

oh yeah, and transphobia is indeed against the law.

ride safe,
tam

[D-Queued]

Hi Johniep,

No, I think that you have misunderstood me. Moreover, I believe that you may be looking to share or assign shared burden for your action.

My point in 'bringing up the past' was to underscore how people have a tendency to link things, particularly negative ones. My point was to underscore how unfair this can be, and how a relatively small thing or things can easily appear much, much larger.

Actions are not held as isolated instances, but our tendency is to link them.

In this particular instance, however, this was not a minor incident. Putting it bluntly, the podium was defiled.

This was a National championship by a National Sports Organization that is recognized by the UCI and one that is responsible for sending athletes to the World Championships and the Olympics. It is a very important ceremony.

Now, if you want to talk about history and fact, then consider when Dan first posted on here. As I recall, he originally came on this forum to provide insight and explanation into the National Jersey affair. There was already negative sentiment expressed, and Dan was seeking to take away some of the misunderstanding.

His posting and Danika's situation caught my attention. This is due to even older history.

Once upon a time (a very long time ago), I was a Canadian champion. Once upon a time, I was on a team that had earned the right to be on a National Team. Our representation was challenged, and we had to pay our own way to Ontario to compete, and win, a National Trials. Having been designated, having met the time standard, and having won the Trials, we were then sent to the Pan Am Games. Upon arriving, we had no National team clothing. No Jerseys. How are you supposed to represent your country when you can't even be identified as a member of your country's team?

Danika's situation did catch my attention given this history. With a very personal experience of my own, I felt very strongly about adding my voice in support of her situation.

Now, having provided that support I don't appreciate it one bit when I hear about the kind of action that occured on that podium last weekend.

In my case, I know full well what my coach would have done to me, let alone the National body. I would have been kicked off the team with no questions asked.

You appear to own a large amount of responsibility for this. Too bad you aren't the one that will take the biggest impact. In supporting DH, people like me put our own credibility and reputations on the line. Sometimes we have to ask, what for?

Please think about that a bit more before making even further accusations about distorting truths or somehow wanting to harm someone through words on this forum.

Dave.

[wolverine]

Another female racers on elite-pro racing comment:
Dh racing isn't wrestling boxing or...you know.
What difference it makes with heavy muscles and 300 pounds riders in Dh racing? I don't understand! I can't catch it. Explain!
It so a weak argument to discriminate you should be very ashamed. Human rights a fantasy?
As Danika is concerned I didn't read any apology and she's on the Canada Team to the World Champs. O she talked to her and it's OK. I am like an Emily and very angry. I hope she will make a complete confess soon and some sincere apology. What about her dad? Coming very soft but ending very hard. That isn't rational about this thing (more emotonal I guess) his daughter.
Asking a racer and in this case the only one to beat her, asking Michelle, to quit the Dh racin'! Wow! I feel like women will be dominate much more soon by men.
Michelle has to race until she wants and nobody can stop her and I don't want she stops either!
Because when Adrienne won by 2 minutes at 2006 Bromont World Cup i didn' t read anything about how strange it was. Then at Mt-Tremblant in June 40 sec. in front of second racer. I didn' t read anything about it. That's OK she's genetic! And Anne Caro Chausson who won every Word Champs she entered. Cheese!
So at Whistler Michelle won by one or 2 sec. A male advantage? Are you serious? I don't care which one is the winner until discrimation came. And all her muscle mass and the past history of a "man" are pure discrimination and I guess new strategy to push out best riders from racing!
Canada: your values are becoming like Yanks...Wake up!

[crybaby]

Ok..ok ...ok.....Lets come clean here.
Nobody cares about downhill racing.
Heres the proof.....until this issue was posted here I had no idea a Transgender women was competing in and for Canada and she provides most of youre press!

Downhill racing is a total joke.......You have to pay for youre own National team jerseys.

Ive read a few other boards to get a feel for downhill racers and while reading the posts, Iam trying to figure out what theyre saying and its uncomprehendable (much like Wolverine in the previous post). Who says schools arent dumbing down our kids?.


Dont EVER get rid of the transgender...its the only thing the sport has going for it!

[wolverine]

And maybe you don't know anything about tostesterone and Floyd Landis either. Raod racing is so clean!